BTC Podcast Ep 3: Janiene Ullrich, The Family Coppola & Shifting to E-commerce | Hathway

BTC Podcast Ep 3: Janiene Ullrich, The Family Coppola & Shifting to E-commerce

Published by Kevin Rice, CMO
June 11, 2020

Janiene Ullrich, The Family Coppola, and Shifting to E-commerce

Our friend and client, Janiene Ullrich of The Family Coppola, joins Kevin and Jesse to discuss how her team was able to lean on their flexibility, creativity and innovative ideas to pivot quickly within this new landscape. As the EVP of Direct to Consumer, she shares with us how they are standing out in the crowded world of e-commerce and what steps they took pre-COVID that are paying dividends now. Plus, we find out how Fred Astaire’s advice to Francis Ford Coppola helped shape the The Family Coppola brand.

Check it out on your favorite podcast platform or the video below.

Video Transcription

Jesse:

So, today is June 10th, the 11 month birthday of my son, Lucas, happy 11 months Lucas. It has been actually a few weeks since we recorded this episode with Janiene, and it’s hard to believe that we thought things were changing quickly, but man, a lot has changed in the last few weeks. One of the things that we’re proud to announce in addition to some donations that we’ve been making to support the Black Lives Matter movement where we did a matching campaign last week with our team. Janiene talks a little bit in this episode about No Kid Hungry charity that you know, supports feeding children. And one of the things we realized is that the black community has been certainly affected by systematic racism in a way that is that is hurting kids and is making them hungry and preventing them from getting access to good nutritious food. So today we’re announcing that with every episode of Beyond the Counter, we are going to be donating in the name of our guests on this case, Janiene and The Family Coppola, $500 to No Kid Hungry and we’ll be doing that with every episode. So at that let’s turn it over to, I guess, me from a few weeks ago to introduce Janiene.

Jesse:

All right, well, good morning, Kevin and Janiene today we’re with Janiene Ullrich, from The Family Coppola. She’s gonna share with us some of, some really exciting things about what they’ve been doing lately in response to the crisis. Janiene works with us at Hathway specifically with regards to The Family Coppola’s winery. But The Family Coppola actually does quite a bit more than just wine. And as many of you probably know it’s the business of Francis Ford Coppola in his family, but Jean, maybe if you could just walk us through what family cope was all about, how Francis is involved and kind of how things were going before the crisis.

Janiene:

Yeah, definitely. So in a couple months I’ll be celebrating my 20th anniversary with The Family Coppola. We have wineries, of course, Francis Ford Coppola Winery, as well as Virginia Dare Winery. Last year, we opened up a tasting room in Oregon’s Willamette Valley called Domaine de Broglie. And then Francis also has a restaurant named Cafe Zoetrope, which is in North Beach in San Francisco. And they actually just celebrated their 20th anniversary last year. He has a quarterly literary magazine called Zoetrope: All-Story. He makes pastas and pasta sauces with a line called Mammarella’s. He has some, some movie things happening of course, as well. And then he also has a collection of what we call Hideaways. So they’re their resorts located in Central America. There’s two in Belize, one in Guatemala. There’s Jardine Escondido in Argentina. And then there’s Palazzo Margherita, which is in Southern Italy. So my role is specifically related to our hospitality businesses on the wine side. So for Francis Ford Coppola Winery, Virginia Dare, Domaine de Broglie and then also overseeing Cafe Zoetrope in San Francisco. And then there’s a lot to remember. There’s also a restaurant at Francis Ford Coppola Winery called Rustic, Francis’s favorite.

Kevin:

Yeah. So during quarantine, I feel like you have the most desirable job in the country right now you’re selling wine.

Janiene:

People definitely want their wine. Yeah.

Kevin:

But I’m assuming you get to do a little bit of sampling too while you’re in quarantine.

Janiene:

Yeah. my husband and I, we have two small kids at home. So at the end of the day after we’re done homeschooling and working, we’re definitely celebrating with some wine that we made it through the day

Kevin:

Daily. Huh? Yeah. What’s what’s your blend of choice?

Janiene:

Well I, I have really enjoyed our Sofia Brut Rose, which comes in that mini can. And then just depending on what we decide to do for dinner, my favorite wine that we make is our Eleanor red blend. This is actually a favorite. So Sheri on your team as well, I know she’s a big fan of that. And then as the weather’s warming up, our Director’s Cut Sauvignon Blanc  is also really refreshing and a nice way to kind of reward ourselves.

Kevin:

I enjoyed, we’ve been doing some happy hours with all of our clients partners and I got to enjoy it. I think it was a 17 pinot reserve. That was very good. How how has this gone for the business? Or just even the, the industry as a whole I assume like you mentioned earlier and myself and, you know, a lot of other parents who are dealing with working from home and homeschooling, you know, a glass of wine in the evening makes a nice end to the day. So how is the industry fairing as a whole and how is your business doing right now?

Janiene:

It’s hitting different parts of the industry in different ways. So of course, most of the wine industry, it happens through what we call kind of the, the off-premise channel. So when you go into your local grocery store and you buy wine, but then there’s also a segment of the industry, which depends on on-premise businesses. So that’s wine, that’s being sold to people to enjoy with their meals in the restaurant. So of course that part of the business that was most, that was, it got the biggest amount of impact and beginning because restaurants were shut down as different areas started to open up some of the restrictions, like letting restaurants do curbside pickup, which they previously, at least in California, weren’t allowed to do with their on premise license. That definitely helped a little bit. So, and for us, for the direct to consumer businesses, that, that my team oversees, normally we’d be busy staffing bringing on new people to join us for the season, getting the pool up and running. And so we had to shift pretty quickly, but a lot of that business just moved into our eCommerce channel. So even though we weren’t able to have our hospitality businesses open in April, we pretty much made the difference through e-commerce last month.

Jesse:

And so when you say eCommerce, you’re referring to your first party you know, website channels, are you referring to being available on bevmo.com and Instacart and those sorts of things?

Janiene:

So, yeah, we have seen a surge. Our wholesale team has seen a surge in platforms like drizzly and then the retailers owned places like the BevMo targets, Costco Walmart. So, so they’ve seen that there as well.

Jesse:

And how, how do you do when you’re looking at those, those third party channels, how are you doing merchandising? Because you know, a lot of people, you know, myself included, this is the first time we’ve ever actually purchased groceries online, let alone, without the hall online and wine, especially seems to be, you know, kind of somewhat of a walking down the aisle at the store and what kind of jumps out and, you know, has the label meet the eye, the, you know, the gambit with pricing and discounting, but I already be able to, to make a difference when there’s so many options, let’s say if I was going to purchase, you know, at AVMA.

Janiene:

Yeah. So the wholesale team had actually been focusing quite a bit on investing in in a platform where they could upload all of their assets for that particular wine. So everything from the bottle shots, but also videos, descriptions to kind of have it in this hub. And then those retailers could then take that information directly, which allows our wines to get up quicker, but also have the messaging be more consistent because before then, if every single retailer had a different route to getting them that information and posting it, it could be a little disjointed as you can imagine. So on the, on the wholesale side, that’s what they were, they were looking at. And luckily for us on our direct eCommerce platform, a nice plug for you guys, but we’ve worked with you on updating our e-com store last quarter. So we definitely stepped into this with our best foot forward.

Jesse:

That’s great. And are you seeing sales growth looking at your first party channel where you have to the data, Are you seeing sales growth from, you know, historical customers or maybe club members that are buying more online or are these net new customers that are finding out about Coppola and, and coming to the store and ordering direct?

Janiene:

It was a big surge across the board. So when this hit in March, we do these quarterly shipments for wine club members. And March was one of the quarters that we were doing, our, our shipping, and we have a, a good percentage of our club that are what we call pickup members. So they normally plan their day, come to the winery, pick up their shipment, and then they’ll go hang out at the restaurant. So that was kind of our first diligence. If we had to reach out to them, you know, check in on them and see what we could do to make so that they wouldn’t have to worry about picking up their wine and we will hold onto it indefinitely for you. If you just want to have a toll that you ready to come back, or we will ship it directly to you.

Janiene:

And we won’t we’ll cover the delivery costs, even though, you know, normally there’s an extra charge for that. We would waive that. So that was really appreciated by our club members. But then the other part of your question, we saw a big surgeon in new customers. So I would say over 40% of our business in April came from new customers coming to our website. And part of that I’ll give an example, Pennsylvania. We had over I would say 500 new customers from Pennsylvania and the amount of wine that they ordered. They ordered more wine than the States of Texas and New York combined, which is pretty amazing because historically they’re in our top three States, along with California, so big surge of people in Pennsylvania and part of that was because of the restrictions in their state. So then they had to go buy direct. And so a lot of people found us that way.

Kevin:

Yeah, yeah. Toilet paper and wine, right? Like the big run on essential items.

Janiene:

Yeah. The things you don’t want to be without. Yeah.

Kevin:

How, how has it been working from home? I assume is an organization that’s uncommon for The Family Coppola.

Janiene:

Yeah. So our poor it department, they had a big surge in people needing to get new laptops deployed and get systems set up. We were already in the rollout of a new kind of upgrade for our office system, which included Microsoft teams. So people had to quickly learn how to use teams so that we could do more video conferencing, team meetings, things like that. I would say for me personally, and a lot of my fellow colleagues, the biggest thing I think is just juggling the kids at home and working from home and not really having that division in the day anymore. So definitely our leadership has been very cognizant of that and just very supportive of that. And people just been really flexible understanding when we have a meeting. And like you saw earlier, if my kid crashes a meeting, people are welcoming and they’re fine with it. And they just understand it’s part of day to day life. So everyone’s been very good and positive about that.

Kevin:

Yeah. It’s been kind of cool getting to know people and like see an inside peek into their world and, you know, see our kids and family members and a pet. Yeah. That’s definitely you guys did a so flexible at the office, but also you guys did some pivots at the winery. I noticed you guys were doing some virtual wine tastings would love to hear how that went.

Janiene:

Yeah. You know, that, that was definitely a new foray for us, but we knew it was something that we needed to do because, you know, we wanted to engage with our fans and our members and kind of quickly figure out how to do that. I think I mentioned it earlier. We, as a company we’re pretty nimble and pretty flexible. And a lot of times we’re asked to do things that have never been done before. So for instance, we were the first winery to put wine in a can we opened up a pool at a winery that was, that was very novel. So it’s just kind of in our DNA to figure that out. And people were very supportive. So we had people jumping in from the marketing team, the hospitality team. Of course, we did a couple of demos with our wholesale team, which is great because that was a good way for us to test out the technology, having people call in to virtual tasting from different areas.

Janiene:

And they actually make, gave us some simple ideas to consider too. So, so that was really good. And as we were working through the process, you know, at first it was kind of intimidating thinking about how to make things like zoom tastings work, but we kind of kept coming back to this idea. You know, I think the main thing that’s important that we do is when somebody came into the tasting bar and had a tasting, you had to, you had to figure out what that person’s wine preference was, how much they know about wine, how much they want to know about wine. Do they care about barrel aging? Do they care more about the stories behind our labels and more about the Coppola’s? Cause there’s a lot of storytelling that’s involved. So as long as we took that time to figure out what that customer really cared about, then if you have a technical glitch, it can kind of be forgiven because you’re creating more of like that familiarity with that person on the spot. And so you don’t have to be as worried about the lighting going wrong or having glitches in the audio. You just, you know, be, create that connection and you’re able to kind of push through it and be fine.

Kevin:

Can we expect any virtual tastings with cameos by Francis or Roman?

Janiene:

You know, it’s it’s really funny. I think, I think there’s a preconception that the family might not be that involved just because they’re a famous family, but they are, they are very involved in the business. And so I, I don’t want to give everything away, but we’ve we’ve been talking about some different ideas of things and yeah. I just love the ideas that the family has been sending. They’ve been very, very active throughout this whole whole process.

Kevin:

Yeah, no, I know we we heard at one point that some of our design work was all the way up the ladder and Roman and Francis took a look at it.

Janiene:

Yeah. Everything we do Francis has this, this quote “If it has my name on it, I must approve it”. And, and someone might just quickly label that as creative control, but it actually there’s a story that I’ve heard him tell many times and he had befriended Fred Astaire on a film that they were working on. And I think towards the end of his life and Francis had been talking to him and in front of stare, him, made a comment about, you know, the only regret I have in life is I had licensed my name to this dance studio company basically. And they do dances that I never necessarily did, but now everybody thinks I endorsed it. Cause my name’s on the studio. And that really stuck with Francis that he’s, he has to be very careful about what is presented for his brand. He doesn’t want us to make wines, the family themselves wouldn’t drink. And each, each family member, you know, weighs in on their different wine labels and the style they work with the winemakers on it. So yes, they’re, they’re very involved and very passionate about it. You know, they’re creating a legacy for their family and for our company. So, so you really respect that.

Kevin:

I assume there’s some pretty amazing stories that you’re privy to about the family. What’s, what’s one thing that would surprise our audience about The Family Coppola, either the family itself or, you know, the business.

Janiene:

I think there there’s a legitimate story behind everything that we do. So it’s not like a bunch of marketers go in a room and say, you know, we wanted to design this, this label because that’s, you know, what’s trending, it has to be something that’s personal to the family. So, you know, like, like geo wines is one of our newer wines that we released and she’s been very involved in like the look and the feel of that brand and she’s contributed her own photography to it. You know, each, each member kind of puts their own own spin on it.

Kevin:

And I know, you know, philanthropy has kind of always been a big part of the winery culture have, has COVID-19 brought any more focus and to, you know, charitable causes or contributions you guys are making.

Janiene:

I wouldn’t say it hasn’t brought new focus, but it ended up being very timely. So historically the Coppola’s have always favored organizations that benefit children in the arts. That’s something that they’ve been passionate about since, since I’ve been, I’ve been working here back in January, we had a planning meeting because we were actually getting ready to launch a campaign with no kid hungry, which they do a lot of work across the United States to end childhood hunger in America. So I remember one, one session I was, I was brought into, I was just personally really passionate about it because when I growing up, I depended on the free and reduced meal programs at my school through my district. I was on that from sixth through 12th grade. And I just remember leaving that meeting and they have a very smart, very passionate group of people in their organization.

Janiene:

So that was really inspiring. So we are actually getting ready to launch the campaign when everything hit. And we, we actually wanted to take a pause cause we were afraid it would get lost in the noise of everything going on. So so we actually delayed our press release on that partnership, even though we had already started at behind the scenes, we did that on purpose just to make sure it got the attention it deserved. So I think we, we rolled out the press release a few, a few weeks ago and we had no idea what was coming in terms of COVID-19. And if now, if you think about it with all these schools being closed, closing off the access to kids that normally depended on those free meals in the cafeteria is a big deal. So they’ve been doing a great job, just organizing, setting up sites in my district alone, where my kids go to school they’ve, they’ve helped the district deliver 2,400 meals a day to two kids in need in our, in our community. So, and they do that across the United States. So it’s a ton of kids that are being impacted by this.

Kevin:

That’s amazing. Yeah. I can only imagine how tough it is for families that rely on those kinds of programs. How how can anybody that’s maybe watching this or in our audience support the organization, No Kid Hungry.

Janiene:

Yeah, definitely check out nokidhungry.org. You can set up, I personally set up a monthly contribution to them.

Kevin:

So where does the wine industry go from here? Do you see any is as a result of this or we’re going to see more online eCommerce orders, you know, moving forward, are people gonna return to the tasting rooms? You know, where, where do we go from here?

Janiene:

Yeah. I mean, a lot of it will depend on what happens in our states and our counties. So we’re definitely awaiting word from the governor’s office on, on what to look out for. I think the one thing for us that’s been interesting is a lot of people that maybe never would have thought of ordering wine online or doing that. So like I said, in the month of April, we had a big surge of new customers and they’ve repeated their orders already. So, so that’s great for us. It’s, it’s, it’s easier for people to find new brands that they discover if they ever experimented with having them delivered to their door. I don’t know if virtual toast tastings will necessarily go away. Cause before all of this happened, we were as a company trying to figure out, well, how do you keep people engaged once they visit the winery, but then they go back home to their state. Like how do you keep them excited about it besides sending them an email blast about a wine release that you have. So I think the industry will continue to embrace things like virtual tastings as well. And then, yeah, just from here on out, it’s just gonna be a matter of slowly opening back up. It’s not gonna look the same as it did last year. We probably won’t have as many people on property at a given time. And who knows how long that’s going to last. But I think the big thing is it was a big wake up call for the industry about having to be creative, embracing digital opportunities to sell wine and, and to understand their customers and making it easier for them to go what they want.

Jesse:

Can you walk me through how a virtual tasting works?

Janiene:

Yeah. So we’ve had, we have a couple different, different setups, but people aren’t really sure like how to start. We we have some packages set up, you know, like our, from our diamond collection wines, what we call our Golden Tier. So that’s our claret, Oregon pinot and our Pavilion. And if people buy a three pack, then we set them up at the tasting and then we set up a time through zoom, you know? So we, we set up the appointment, make sure that, you know, they have a password to get on there, but if somebody wants to curate something, then we’re fine with doing that to do they buy four bottles, they can choose the four bottles let us know what they want. And then we schedule an appointment. And then we also have a kind of a slightly different version where if people want to set up a group tasting with friends that are social distancing from different areas, we’ll do that as well.

Janiene:

We’ll kind of tap one of the customers, maybe be the host just to make sure everybody gets their wine on time. And then we set up the, the kind of the happy hour session with them. That’s what we’ve been calling it. And then the host, just the host from our winery. Just again, it’s about understanding what people are into, what they like. Do they want to hear more about the stories behind the scenes with The Family Coppola or are they really interested in the technical aspects of our wine or the ABA is, and then they just kind of go from there.

Kevin:

So for a lot of people, you know, we’ve kind of taken this quarantine period as a chance to take stock and, you know, think about ourselves and our lives. Have you done on the personal side of things? Have you done anything differently for yourself while you’ve been in quarantine?

Janiene:

Yeah. You know, it was funny earlier in the year I had signed up for this online course about creating creating a creative practice. So I used to draw and paint all the time in high school and growing up and then adulting happened and I did less and less and less of it. And especially after I had kids. So it was funny because I had started this course and the teacher would host weekly zoom sessions for the class and encourage people to participate with video. So I was already getting kind of integrated into the technology side. I, I had attended zoom meetings before, but I usually would just keep the off, cause that’s just, wasn’t something that I was, I was comfortable with. So that kind of broke that barrier. And we wrapped up maybe two weeks after the shelter in place orders went into effect.

Janiene:

And I was really grateful for that because painting and drawing, I’m doing more of it. My daughters are seeing me do it. And so they want to do it. And at this age, you know, they’re eight and four and they’re full of creativity and they don’t have that self doubt or self critiquing. And so for me, I would, it was important for me to keep that going for them as an outlet too, because, you know, they might be going through different things, like not going to school anymore or going to daycare and seeing their friends. So it’s been nice to encourage that creative outlet in our family.

Kevin:

That’s great, Jesse, what are you doing?

Jesse:

And a lot of time with my son, he’s his, his 10 month birthday. We had a great time. We I think my wife is posting it to Instagram today, but we recreated a Benihana restaurant last night, so we call it Benimama. And actually I got a flat top grill, like, you know, steel griddle thing and put it on my outdoor barbecue. So set it up. Did the did the onion volcano, did the fried rice, did the like little flicking the shrimp? So my wife could catch it and I got the like shrimp tail caught it in my little chef hat and stuff, so that was fun, but yeah, a lot of the cooking planting in our garden. But then I got my, you know, my son and he’s, it’s actually been somewhat of a, of a blessing to be able to spend so much time with him and see all of these milestones and a little things that if I was at the office, I wouldn’t, you know, get that little, you know, even just a 32nd, you know, give him a hug and give my wife, you know, a break, you know, it wouldn’t be happening if I was working in the office. So that’s great. Yeah, got a baby, got a little baby pool, put them in that the other day. I think I have to assume that,

Kevin:

You know, for me and a lot of people, you know, moving forward, even when we can go back to the office, it’s going to be more of a blend where like, I’m going to go into the office when I need to, for in person meetings. But you know, I’m really getting used to work from home for all those same reasons. Being able to pop out, see my kiddos, you know, go out for a run in between meetings. You know, save time on commute, you know, like a 15 minute commute. So it’s not that big of a deal, but you know, I’ll take all the time I can get back in my day. So I think, yeah, the work world is going to be a little different moving forward. So we’ll kind of see time will tell.

Jesse:

Yeah. And I think you know, it’s definitely, there’s, there’s been a lot of articles about how that’s going to change commercial real estate as well. So if you don’t need, you know, we definitely, there’s a question, you know, we’re going to move back into the office, but do we need as many dedicated desks? Is it going to change our layout or is it more likely that if people are in the office, it’s because they want to collaborate versus because they want to work privately. So it might change layouts overall usage of space, and then maybe, you know, more sharing arrangements where, you know, maybe it’s, you know, multiple companies sharing an office because not everybody’s there all the time. But you kind of need a space when you need to have a meeting with all of your staff or something like that. So it’s definitely a interesting, and then, you know, obviously rents, I think are, are challenged for the first time we were thinking about this in San Louis Obispo. You know, it’s a college town and no matter what the economy is doing and there, and the real estate market’s doing for, you know, the value of homes rents have been extraordinarily stable. And so being a landlord who owns a house, you know, that’s around you, college students is a pretty stable business, but now what happens if Cal poly doesn’t come back in session and in September, and it just goes all virtual. What’s the second what’s going to happen to the real estate market and in San Luis Obispo and similar things I’d imagined are going to be happening, you know, all across the country and across the world.

Janiene:

I think the, in closing for us, I don’t think anybody ever really saw something like this coming. Although I would say particularly where we are in Sonoma County, we have been tested in recent years with different things like wildfires in 2017 and 2019 and PG&E power shut downs. And I think what kind of makes us thrive. And I think what a lot of people are learning is that it does help when you have, when you embrace creativity and flexibility and just innovation and just being open minded to pivoting quickly to what, what happens next. So I’m very, very grateful. That’s something that’s in our, our company DNA and for the people that, that do that every single day. We, we really do have an amazing team of people and wouldn’t, wouldn’t be getting through this without them, for sure.

Kevin:

Thank you Janiene for joining us. It was wonderful chatting with you today and thank you for being an amazing client and partner for us. It was great to get to know you last year at the client summit a little bit better, and we’ll look forward to coming up for a visit and doing some tasting in the near future as a restrictions lift.

Janiene:

I’m looking forward to it. Thank you. Thank you, Janiene. Love it. Alright. Have a great week, everybody.

Kevin:

Thank you. Yeah, bye.

Jesse:

Looking back on that, I’ve got way more stash now and a less spiky Mohawk, but man, it’s good to see how far things have progressed in the few weeks since we recorded that episode.

Kevin:

I’m back in the office,

Jesse:

You’re back in the office. I think you’re not allowed to be an office. Did you get permission from HR 48 hours in advance?

Kevin:

I gave myself permission. Does that count?

Kevin:

I don’t know, HR, don’t watch this video. We love you Evelyn, but on, on a serious note Janiene and with the team we’re doing at Coppola’s is pretty impressive. And definitely I’ve enjoyed some of, some of their wines since we’ve been in quarantine. Been able to send up some of our clients too, which is just been a great way to keep the morale going. While we’re all sitting here, locked up at home. But Kevin, what are your thoughts? What are some key takeaways from the discussion with?

Kevin:

I mean, the, the wine industry is kind of really one of those last few industries you know, kind of trailing the restaurant industry that’s yet to be, you know, effected fundamentally or fundamentally changed by the internet. And now like so many other industries COVID-19 is really acting as an accelerator. I think I read that as a $30 billion industry, roughly, you know, five, you know, the industry stands to lose five to 6 billion in revenue this year. However digital is helping to buoy some of that lost revenue. You know, online retailers like the Vino and wine.com are reporting significant increases in online sales to the tune of two to five X in previous years. So it’s really the smaller wineries that are probably gonna get hit the hardest. But brands like Francis Ford, Coppola’s winery, you know, they really made the right investments last year. They’re continuing to make the right investments in digital. And you know, there’ll be one of the ones that make it out of this. It probably make it out of this even stronger with a new line of business that is as growing as their tasting rooms and restaurants opened back up. Absolutely.

Jesse:

Speaking of supporting your local winery, I think I saw in the needs that are beautiful and a Valley and Paso Robles wineries are going to be open this weekend for some sort of modified wine tasting. So get out and go.

Kevin:

Fantastic. Well, that’s another episode of Beyond the Counter. Thanks for tuning in. If you enjoyed it, be sure to share it with your friends subscribe and we’ll be back for another episode next week.

Producer:

Hey everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in today. You’ve been listening to Beyond the Counter, a podcast created, recorded and produced by the team at Hathway. Your hosts today, we’re Hathway CEO, Jesse Dundon and CMO Kevin Rice. Thank you again to our good friend and client Janiene Ullrich of The Family Coppola for her time and insights. We hope you enjoy today’s episode and for more info on Hathway and Beyond The Counter, please visit us at wearehathway.com. Thanks again for listening, stay safe and we’ll catch you on the next, Beyond The Counter.